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Hey Guys....

I am looking at the moment to have a much better location lighting system. The major issue i have is using my large softbox (connected to my 'main' Sb800 and wired up to my D3) and trying to trigger my other Sb800 as a backlight? If my 'main' Softbox SB800 isnt full power (causing me to shoot with smaller apertures) then the second SB800 doesnt trigger....or the other issue is the SB800 is too far from my 'main' softbox SB800....or the model is in between the two etc......so i was thinking PW's are the go....but before i fork out $300 i want to know how others have found them....or what other ways i ight be able to get my flash system working seamlessly on site?

Any ideas guys?

Dan

Hi Dan, I haven't used them but I understand that pocket wizards don't do Nikon CLS. So if you are relying on a SB800 or SU800 transmitting CLS info to your other SBs, then pocket wizards will not do that for you. If you are using the pocket wizards just to trigger and are prepared to set the power of the individual SBs manually, then the pocket wizards should work for you. Not being able to transmit CLS data between the SBs was what put me off buying them.

Cheers
John

John's right - you will have to set the power manually with teh pocket wizards. On the upside, they are completely and utterly reliable. I have never, ever had one fail to trigger the flashes

I obviously wouldn't really use them for event photography where you need to adapt very quickly to different scenarios, but if you have a moment to set up and dial in the required power, they are pretty awesome.

PWs cost a premium for a reason - they work time after time

I settled for the PWs over the Elinchroms for a couple of reasons:

- Changing the battery isn't as easy on the Skyport compared to the PWs. PWs use AA whereas the Skyports use lithium batteries
- too many good reviews for the PWs

You'll need to either get a lightmeter or be really quick at chimping as you will need to set the power on the flash manually. Either that or come up with a base ISO and light settings and change accordingly.

there is a new option out there call radio poppers that transmit the Nikon CLS iTTL information between the flashes or su800 / flashes via radio signal so you get full CLS iTTL without being limited to line of sight
here they are tested on strobist http://strobist.blogspot.com/2008/04/radiopopper-palooza.html

here is a very good little video that explains the radiopopper properly
http://www.radiopopper.com/vids/radiopopper_p1_install.mov

hi dan,
what shutter speed do you need? take care in choosing, as for your location stuff, this will be important, all radio triggers have different max shutter synch speeds.

I have the bowens triggers, and on a D200, I can only get 1/200th, which really sucks for bright outdoors, as my location lights are hard to get up to anything over f11 if using softboxes.

I have used a friends Elinchrom Skyports, and they are sleek, but as Wayne said, the batteries are uncommon "button cells" which means you need to carry more battery types. I think they recharge nice, but this is no good on location.

Pocket Wizards are very popular, and get great reviews. they are basic, easy to use, and have a higher synch speed, I think nikons can get around 1/500th.

have you tried the Nikon SC-800, it may get you better reliabilibiy and give you the "nikon talk" if you are using it.

I am guessing that you use the SB800s in manual, so the radio poppers posted above look pretty nice, from a synch speed point of view. they look like they use radio to cover the distance, and then fire the light from the optical cords, to trigger an SB800 in SU-4 mode. how reliable? I would consider the Nikon SU-800 first. PW second.

What are you using now to trigger? Canon, Nikon, mixed? If you are still using canon, then the PWs would be great.

if using the SB800 on a mount, use the little stand that came with the SB800, that has 3 hotshoe positions, put the SB800 in 1, and the PW in another, then you have a good mount to avoid damage. I think short synch cords come with the PW. spend the money to get the screw in kind PC synch cords, otheriwse the push in ones will slip out, and you will lose the reliable firing.

Oz_Beachside wrote:if using the SB800 on a mount, use the little stand that came with the SB800, that has 3 hotshoe positions, put the SB800 in 1, and the PW in another, then you have a good mount to avoid damage.

I tried this the other day and it doesn't work. Both units don't fit on the little stand.

The flash sync rate is at 1/250th for focal plane shutters and 1/500th for leaf shutters.

Also depends on the distance that you're wanting to use the remote triggers. If it's just off camera within say 2 or 3 metres, the SU-800 will do. If it's outdoors and about 5m-10m away, then use PWs.

If you're going to be using it for work, then go straight for the PWs. They will outlast the other units for reliability and you'll pay it off within a few months anyway if you have constant work, if not weeks. Worth the investment.

Bruce,

Oz_Beachside wrote:what shutter speed do you need? take care in choosing, as for your location stuff, this will be important, all radio triggers have different max shutter synch speeds.

Are you sure of this? Maximum sync speed is a direct function of the type of shutter in use. For instance, many film cameras have a horizontal FP shutter, and as such, sync speed will be no faster than 1/60. Those which have a vertical FP shutter will sync to 1/125, and most Nikons since the FA will sync at 1/250. Cameras with a leaf shutter ('Blads, Bronicas, Rolleis) will sync at all shutter speeds.

Once the shutter has been tripped, all that happens is that the fact of the shutter tripping is communicated to all connected slaves, and they ... just go off. I cannot see where any camera's sync speed would have any further impact on the flash's timing, nor on the power of any flash unit's output, which of course is a factor of the flash head in use.

I have the bowens triggers, and on a D200, I can only get 1/200th,

Which is a camera based factor. It has nothing to do with any trigger, be that Bowens, Phottix, PW, or whatever. The camera's maximum sync speed is 1/200. Either deal with it, or get a different body.

Pocket Wizards are very popular, and get great reviews. they are basic, easy to use, and have a higher synch speed, I think nikons can get around 1/500th.

No, I doubt it. A PW will not get your D200 to sync at 1/500 because the camera simply cannot do it. At 1/500, your D200's shutter will not be fully open. No trigger will cause your camera's shutter to be fully open when the shutter's physical characteristics preclude this from happening.

The poppers may use multiple flash firing to gain high speed sync, but that's a different game altogether and may result in significant reductions in flash output power; the PWs do not, to my knowledge, have that technology.

In the other post about PWs, Firsty points us to the radiopoppers. According to the specs on the RP website, the RPs will sync to 1/8000. The PWs documentation states a max of 1/500. Now I know my D3 will synch at speeds of up to 1/1000 because I was doing it on the weekend and I'm pretty sure the D200 was the same. Using 1/250 (FP) synch speed get's you over 1/250 sec. I'm assuming the camera waits til the shutter is right open then triggers the flash. Just a guess though. Anyway, from what I've read about PWs and RPs, it appears there is a limitation in the technology of the PWs and that limitation doesn't exist in the RPs. And the RPs transmit iTTL/CLS data and the PWs don't and the units cost the same near enough to it. So why would you go with PWs over RPs? Unless they don't meet Aus RF standards - which is quite possible.

Cheers
John

johnd said:
I'm assuming the camera waits til the shutter is right open then triggers the flash. Just a guess though.

I think you'll find in FP mode that the flash fires several rapid bursts in order to hit synch. properly - on the down side this reduces the range from what it would normally cover.

RP's won't be available here for a little while - good luck getting them shipped here also!
You'd only be able to get them if you got them shipped to someone you know inside the usa (I know the guy who created them and have chatted with him on it) They will be certifying them down the track for outside of canada / usa usage when the production has really gone up (costs to certify them)

The RP's only go high up shutter speeds using the high speed sync of the canon / nikon units (other brands may follow). - IT pulses light out from the strobe in rapid sucession. Because of this you don't get the same power as you would using it in normal sync (1/250 + under)

If you've followed strobist - you would have seen Joe Mcnally shooting with like 7 strobes into on diffusion panel to be able to shoot high sync to capture the ambient and get some decent output. Some info on why he shoots like that here.

The RP's do look great - Im keeping an eye out on professional tog's who have bought them to see their verdict. Thumbs up so far of what I have seen.

---------
that aside... There are reasons I would choose the PW's and will probably do so very shortly:

* You can trigger PW's wirelessly with a light / flash meter - the Sekonic L-358 + L-758 etc have an optional Pocketwizard transmitter module than can fire off your PW's (trigger model #RT-32) This means you can take an ambient light reading, switch over to flash metering mode, fire off your strobe from the model's position and meter the flash - then it can tell you what aperture you need to set your camera at to create whatever ratio you told the meter youd like (eg: 40:60 ambient / flash) - too easy!

* portable battery packs with PW: Some of the profoto, lumedyne, broncolor etc battery packs have a built in PW trigger so firing off your strobes is a no brainer! - also some of the studio monolights have PW's built in.

my 3c,

Jonathan

Dan - PM me your email address and Ill email you a video of a guy showing the flash meter / PW in use to balance ambient / flash easily.

johnd wrote:In the other post about PWs, Firsty points us to the radiopoppers. According to the specs on the RP website, the RPs will sync to 1/8000. The PWs documentation states a max of 1/500. Now I know my D3 will synch at speeds of up to 1/1000

IS the D3 actually synching at 1/1000?

With the D300, it's not traditional synching. It's computer wizardry, and it causes your flash head(s) to pulse quickly as your shutter travels across the focal plane.

Using 1/250 (FP) synch speed get's you over 1/250 sec. I'm assuming the camera waits til the shutter is right open then triggers the flash.

Which cannot happen on a D200, at 1/250. Otherwise, it would be specified to have a 1/250 sync speed. It doesn't.

Anyway, from what I've read about PWs and RPs, it appears there is a limitation in the technology of the PWs and that limitation doesn't exist in the RPs. And the RPs transmit iTTL/CLS data and the PWs don't and the units cost the same near enough to it.

It's not so much a limitation, but the units' design criteria. The RPs support iTTL, which also probably means that they will support the pulsing flash modes, and hence seemingly faster sync speeds. The PWs, do not, and thus do not.

But as noted, that causes a loss of power: you may find that, at faster shutter speeds, your flash is pulsing maybe 5 times per exposure. In an SB, the flash power will be automatically reduced by virtue of what you're doing. If you're using something like an Elinchrom, that power reduction won't happen as a matter of course, and thus your flash will be triggered at whatever its current setting might be. That may mean that your 0.2 sec recycle time, which is fine for normal shooting, won't cope with a 0.0002 second pulse frequency.

Thanks for that explanation about high shutter speed synching Jonathan and Gary.
That probably explains why the subject was under exposed at 1/1000 sec.


Cheers
John

gstark wrote:

Oz_Beachside wrote:what shutter speed do you need? take care in choosing, as for your location stuff, this will be important, all radio triggers have different max shutter synch speeds.

Are you sure of this?

With radio triggers there is delay between the camera triggering the flash and when the transmitter has finished encoding/sending the signal. Cheap radio triggers typically have a larger delay which limits the max sync speed since the shutter will start closing before the remote flash receives the signal. Also, there is balancing act between efficient encoding and trying to prevent spontaneous or missed flashes. Pocket Wizards have great range and reliability while also allowing fast shutter speeds - this is part of the reason they cost more.

jdear wrote:Dan - PM me your email address and Ill email you a video of a guy showing the flash meter / PW in use to balance ambient / flash easily.

yes please.
ckara@bigpond.net.au

i think the PW will be the best choice, if not the cheapest. if only from a piece of mind and reliability POV.

Thanks everyone for all your help but i am more confused now than when i was when i wrote this last night lol....all i want is a better system that connects as many SB800's as i want on location?

Cheeers
Dan

xorl wrote:

gstark wrote:

Oz_Beachside wrote:what shutter speed do you need? take care in choosing, as for your location stuff, this will be important, all radio triggers have different max shutter synch speeds.

Are you sure of this?

With radio triggers there is delay between the camera triggering the flash and when the transmitter has finished encoding/sending the signal.

Yes, but this is but milliseconds, and nothing new. You will also encounter similar delays when using longer cable lengths.

It is only under extreme conditions - long cable runs, longer distances between transceivers, etc where this will become critical.

And this is surely more of a response time/lag issue, rather than a sync speed issue? While it may require you you to set a lower sync speed, the actual issue has little to do with the sync speed, but with the response time of the triggers.

Dan,

Cre8tivepixels wrote:Thanks everyone for all your help but i am more confused

Good.

...all i want is a better system that connects as many SB800's as i want on location?

Ok.

Let's take a step back if we can.

You're using SB800s.

Do you use iTTL, or just the basic features?

How big is a "location" ?

What are you using now, and what problems are you experiencing?

gstark wrote:Bruce,

Oz_Beachside wrote:what shutter speed do you need? take care in choosing, as for your location stuff, this will be important, all radio triggers have different max shutter synch speeds.

Are you sure of this? Maximum sync speed is a direct function of the type of shutter in use. For instance, many film cameras have a horizontal FP shutter, and as such, sync speed will be no faster than 1/60. Those which have a vertical FP shutter will sync to 1/125, and most Nikons since the FA will sync at 1/250. Cameras with a leaf shutter ('Blads, Bronicas, Rolleis) will sync at all shutter speeds.

Once the shutter has been tripped, all that happens is that the fact of the shutter tripping is communicated to all connected slaves, and they ... just go off. I cannot see where any camera's sync speed would have any further impact on the flash's timing, nor on the power of any flash unit's output, which of course is a factor of the flash head in use.

I have the bowens triggers, and on a D200, I can only get 1/200th,

Which is a camera based factor. It has nothing to do with any trigger, be that Bowens, Phottix, PW, or whatever. The camera's maximum sync speed is 1/200. Either deal with it, or get a different body.

Pocket Wizards are very popular, and get great reviews. they are basic, easy to use, and have a higher synch speed, I think nikons can get around 1/500th.

No, I doubt it. A PW will not get your D200 to sync at 1/500 because the camera simply cannot do it. At 1/500, your D200's shutter will not be fully open. No trigger will cause your camera's shutter to be fully open when the shutter's physical characteristics preclude this from happening.

The poppers may use multiple flash firing to gain high speed sync, but that's a different game altogether and may result in significant reductions in flash output power; the PWs do not, to my knowledge, have that technology.

I am sure, only through practical use. The bowens triggers on bowens monoblocs fire clean at 1/200th on a D200. However, using Antsl's Quantum Trigger, we got lean results up to 1/250th on a D200. True, the difference is smaller, but an interesting observation.

Cre8tivepixels wrote:Thanks everyone for all your help but i am more confused now than when i was when i wrote this last night lol....all i want is a better system that connects as many SB800's as i want on location?

Cheeers
Dan

I dan, Gary loves to stir it up, that's what he does well

assuming you are talking about your portrait work, the PWs would be great. strobist site worships them.

Oz_Beachside wrote:I am sure, only through practical use. The bowens triggers on bowens monoblocs fire clean at 1/200th on a D200. However, using Antsl's Quantum Trigger, we got lean results up to 1/250th on a D200. True, the difference is smaller, but an interesting observation.

That sounds like good luck, rather than good management, as the D200's sync speed is stated as 1/200.

Have you had a close look at the frames? Is there perhaps a small dark band at either the top or bottom of the frame, looking at the frame in landscape mode?

That's what I'd be expecting to see.

Oz_Beachside wrote:

Cre8tivepixels wrote:Thanks everyone for all your help but i am more confused now than when i was when i wrote this last night lol....all i want is a better system that connects as many SB800's as i want on location?

Cheeers
Dan

I dan, Gary loves to stir it up, that's what he does well

Who? me ???

assuming you are talking about your portrait work, the PWs would be great. strobist site worships them.

Providing he's not using iTTL and CLS.

That's why I'm asking to go back to basics.

gstark wrote:Yes, but this is but milliseconds, and nothing new. You will also encounter similar delays when using longer cable lengths.

At 1/250 the shutter is only open for 4* milliseconds, any significant delay can prevent some or all the of the flash pulse from hitting the entire sensor/film. A radio trigger adds significantly more delay than a PC sync cable. With a PC sync cable the flash only has to detect the circuit closing to trigger the flash. Radio triggers need to encode the signal, transmit and receive, decode and recognise it, then trigger the flash. A better encoding/longer signal reduces misfires but increases latency.

And this is surely more of a response time/lag issue, rather than a sync speed issue? While it may require you you to set a lower sync speed, the actual issue has little to do with the sync speed, but with the response time of the triggers.

Exactly, the extra latency introduced by the radio triggers (compared to a cable) sets a hard limit on the maximum sync speed you can use. For example you may only be able achieve 1/160 using cheap eBay triggers, but could reliably get 1/250 with Pocket Wizards. Some radio trigger specifications explicitly list maximum sync speed for this reason.


Edit:
* Technically it's fully open for less than 4ms due to the way the front/rear shutter curtains are staggered, which leaves even less time.

the D200's sync speed is stated as 1/200.

The D200's stated max flash sync is definitely 1/250 (or higher with Auto-FP), I use it all the time.

FWIW this guy sells the PW's a bit cheaper than UR Galaxy.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Pocket-Wizard-PL ... dZViewItem

seems to be quite reliable with good feedback aswell.

4 units is around $755 posted compared to $910 at UR Galazy. thats a saving of around $150. nothing to sneeze at.

the only thing i'm unsure of is with the UR Galaxy site they say ...
Connection Cable (worth $25.00) and Socket Adaptor (worth $25.00) is free.

the other place doesnt say that, so i assume that the above is not included in the standard kit ? am i also to assume that these cables/ sockets are required for them to work on SB's ?

gstark wrote:

Oz_Beachside wrote:I am sure, only through practical use. The bowens triggers on bowens monoblocs fire clean at 1/200th on a D200. However, using Antsl's Quantum Trigger, we got lean results up to 1/250th on a D200. True, the difference is smaller, but an interesting observation.

That sounds like good luck, rather than good management, as the D200's sync speed is stated as 1/200.

Have you had a close look at the frames? Is there perhaps a small dark band at either the top or bottom of the frame, looking at the frame in landscape mode?

That's what I'd be expecting to see.

yes, that's what I mean, we got a dark band on one edge of the frame with the bowens triggers, at 1/250th, but all clear on the Quantum triggers... sorry Dan, we are getting off your topic

hi

do pocket wizards trigger round corners of walls

do the signals go through glass and other materials

does it go through water

ive only used them to trigger a ProFoto B2 pack in the studio pretty much direct line no obstacles

Wendell,

do pocket wizards trigger round corners of walls

Yes.

do the signals go through glass and other materials

Yes.

does it go through water

wth are you shooting? But yes it should go through water, but as with anything RF, water will greatly reduce the distance it fires.

hi wayne thanks

but wheres all the whitepapers discussing these things cant find them i need proof before spending xx amounf of dollars on these things

does the radio trigger go through brick walls

thanks in advance

how muxh did you pay for yours and where did you get them

wendellt wrote:does the radio trigger go through brick walls

Only under extreme provocation.

The trigger's signals though would have no issues ...

But a location check might be needed ... thick walls can impeed RF.

it'll go through walls mate, the signal that is. As with anything RF, anything in between counts as interference so the range will be limited but not stupidly say down to 1 metre.

I bought mine from this guy. Shoot him an email to work out a better price for more units. I bought 3 units for $655 pickup.

Thanks guys for all the help.....thanks gary as well (i know ur only stirring )

I am going to settle on one transmitter and two receivers (are they different units or do you set then to be a receiver or transmitter?)

Again thank you you cant beat this forum for the help and advise it dishes out

Cheers
Dan

Just to clarify for everyone, the Pocketwizard Plus IIs are transceivers. They have automatic sensors to flick them into receiving or transmitting modes, so all you have to do is pick up at least two units and you can start firing away.

Make sure to get the EU frequencies as well as I believe that's the acceptable freq for here, not the American ones. Yes there is a difference.

PiroStitch wrote:Make sure to get the EU frequencies as well as I believe that's the acceptable freq for here, not the American ones. Yes there is a difference.

That's important, but only to a point. If you already have some, then you need to make sure that you match what you already have on hand. Similarly, if you buy more in the future, then those need to match what you already have.

Beyond that, I don't think there would be much between them. There might be minor spectrum issues, but I think they would be, at the end of the day, trivial

I'm no expert on frequencies and the effects on what's currently in place in the Australian system so I can't really comment too much on it. I'm just basing it on what I've read and that we usually follow European standards anyway, rather than American (except for a few things which are not camera related - how's that for insinuation and stirring things up )

so would i be correct in saying you cant trip the sb600 with a pocketwizard ?
i also use my sbr-200's for highlights and effects. i take it they are off limits too ? or can i use the sb800 in commander mode to trigger them with a PW ??

Rooz wrote:so would i be correct in saying you cant trip the sb600 with a pocketwizard ?

I don't see why not - if the 600 doesn't have a PC socket you will need a hotshoe -> PC adaptor though. They're quite cheap.

Cheers

as long as the flash has a hotshoe or a pc sync connector, then you can trigger it with the pocket wizard or any other wireless unit for that matter.

PiroStitch wrote:as long as the flash has a hotshoe or a pc sync connector, then you can trigger it with the pocket wizard or any other wireless unit for that matter.

Just don't expect to be able to use CLS or iTTL.

Ended up getting three EU units for $580 (there abouts)

from where ?

***bump***
Dan, could you let me know where you ended up buying from, thats a great price.

The joys of concurrent threads. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32669

xorl wrote:

the D200's sync speed is stated as 1/200.

The D200's stated max flash sync is definitely 1/250 (or higher with Auto-FP), I use it all the time.

AGREE! AGREE! AGREE!

Max sync spee IS 1/250th. That's what it is in the manual, full stop, end of story. I use my D200 day in, day out with PWs

If in doubt check out http://www.bythom.com/currentdslr.htm.

Radio triggers have limitations which may impede said max sync speed, as mentioned, the bowans only get 1/250th. I have used my PWS at 1/1000th and 1/1250th on my D70 Body and they sync every time (elec shutter allows this). After that is a gamble, the PWs cant keep up... not to mention banding issues.

I use Pocketwizards, I love pocketwizards. Admittedly they are quite dear, but they work all the time every time. Make sure you get good cables though, don't skimp, as the adaptors will be the 'weakest link' in the package.

What do i mean?

Well, i'm sure that you understand you need a cable that goes from the PW to your flashes. Get the specific cable that goes from your flash to miniphone, without the need for any adaptors in between. For instance, for my Sunpak 555 I have a household to miniphone cord. When i first bought my PWS I had a small PC to miniphone adaptor and found it to be troublesome, it would often make the flashes misfire or not fire (which sucks).

For the record I just bought another pocketwizard last night, completely separate to this discussion.

does it go through water

Apparently - Ive seen people use a flash in a plumbers pipe with a PW and sealed off - then they use the flash underwater for creative shooting - strobist.com (of course one end is translucent!)

Jonathan

I got the information!!
Excellent information.Many thanks!

so can POON get these for members?